[QA] Do Atheists believe in souls or higher consciousness?

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[QA] Van Life, Relationships, Downsizing, Drama, Fears

Posed this question to my Facebook friends … lol.. I guess I was asking for it.. although I really was curious.. but this is how people responded to the question asking if Atheists believe in souls or higher consciousness:

Wait.. I just heard something that I had never considered before… do Atheists not believe there are souls? I thought they just didn’t identify with any religion? So those of you who identify as an Atheist or know people who do…. do you know the answer to my query… do Atheists think there are no possibility of soul or higher consciousness or anything like that? (PM me if you don’t want to post public.. but I’m really curious about this.. never even considered that in my belief system)

  RS I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in souls. But I believe in soul music. :)  


so no souls, no higher consciousness? ohhh.. im trying to “reach people where they are at” when trying to describe my own beliefs.. but I always thought people had a basic belief that there were at least souls or a higher consciousness.. even athiests.. I just thought they didnt identify with any religion/god, etc …

another question.. (if you don’t mind) do you believe in “love” ? like.. beyond “sexual love” – like.. “connection” “energy” anything like that?

  RMS Of course.     SM Yes..      GC Yes, I very much believe in love.  

  EN I am an athiest and I absolutely do not believe in souls. I don’t believe in any kind of supernatural or cosmic connection between people… Just relationships based on different dynamics. I believe “love” is just a chemical reaction in the brain caused by repetition. Dead is REALLY dead!   
wow I’m learning so much today.. thanks for sharing.. I can’t comprehend that – need to try and figure out what that would feel like … I don’t follow any religion, I consider myself a truth-seeker, yet I’m always open to the unknown.. ever learning, ever trying to figure stuff out (what we can’t see from our tiny ant perspectives).. ever delving deeper into stuff I don’t understand and “trying it on”.. and now I’ve become very much leaning towards an energetic/spiritual/consciousness way of thinking because it serves me (got me out of some dark/traumatic spaces)… (but ever-skeptical and trying to figure out “why” i believe what I believe) etc.. i.e. did I just take on these beliefs “because” it was the only way out of the darkness… but I absolutely never knew that about atheists… I guess my posts must make your skin crawl sometimes? lol.. sorry about that 


  EN Lol… It’s cool…. Each to their own, but most athiests have a belief founded by the scientific method. There is NO evidence of a soul. I’ve been ghost hunting for years now and rather reluctantly I conclude there is nothing  
   GC  Penny , your posts could never make my skin crawl. I totally believe that people need to believe in what they believe in at that place in time. Many of my friends are spiritual. The ONLY time it annoys me in any way is when a person might try and influence me into their only “right” way. Or if their beliefs impose on others rights. Like some religions or personal beliefs oppose gay rights therefore not only inflicting their view but very, very much hurting others. I am really happy with anyone believing anything as long as others are not hurt by their views. While the majority of my present friend are atheists, some are agnostic, some deeply religious, some deeply spiritual while not being religious. Many have changed views gradually through life. Some starting off religious, as I was bought up then transferring to agnostic to atheist. Others start with an atheist upbringing and flow through to a spiritual outlook. 2 hrs  

  RMS Having read about several instances where children seem to have memories of past lives, particuarly James Leininger, I am open minded about the possability of reincarnation. So perhaps there is something that remains when we die. I’m not sure. I remain open minded about a lot of things. Certinly Brenda Curtiss has shown me that a belif in god helps ease people’s worries. Though that’s not for me, I’m happy that it helps others. I just belive in doing good and being a nice and generous person because it is the right thing to do.  


Definitely in alignment to what I think as well.. believe what you want to believe.. but do the right thing… for me .. a step beyond that would be.. doing the right thing for humanity.. not just ourselves, but also taking care of ourselves.. because being “happy” & kind instead of being an “asshole”.. makes the world a happier place.. rather than a miserable place.. kinda deal lol.. “along those lines anyway”. Yeah I just did a crappy video on the different possibilities on reincarnation.. still on the fence about that one, but at the same time… Im not closed to it because for my beliefs to hold true.. some kind of reincarnation-like-experience has to be real… so struggling on how I can believe one without belief in the other.. its like.. “sitting on the fence waiting for more truth to be revealed”

  EN I recommend the satanic bible by Anton Lavey. It not about worshipping Satan, coz we don’t believe in him at all. It’s more of a code of ethics, philosophy, or “religion” on being a human without requiring a supernatural belief system  

lol thats so unusual that you host ghost tours without any belief in ghosts :) but maybe dad was the same when he was doing it.. I kept on telling him “where” in Ballarat “we” used to see ghosts as teenagers.. (Brown Hill area) but who knows what us punk kids could really see – as in, “as an adult”.. not having those kind of “interactions” for over 12 years now.. you kinda wonder.. well… did I see it or not? was it real or my imagination?

my first website.. lol.. like when the internet came to ballarat.. was about ufo’s and ghosts.. thankfully that website is now a distant memory cos it was just awful :)

wait…. a satanic “bible”.. isnt that an oxymoron?

  EN Yes… Very intentional oxymoron  


one more question (I hope) lol.. so wait.. quantum physics = “not science” to Atheists?

  EN Yes quantum physics is awesome but it doesn’t prove the existence to soul  


but but but but lol..

  EN Go for it!  


hehe ok, im trying to find the right words to try and figure it own head

ok, so wait.. energy yes.. ? consciousness no?

  EN Close enough yes  


fascinating.. thanks

oh oh oh..

all Atheists = different beliefs depending on who they are? or does the very definition imply “no soul, no consciousness” etc ?

  DSK The problem is the word “belief.” Believing & knowing are two distinct things. You may believe something & your belief may make one think they know it as a fact. However a fact can be methodically tested whereas a belief, really, cannot with the exception of the odd bit of coincidence over the years. 2 + 2 = 4. A fact. It can be tested & shown to be true. Therefore I know it’s true.  


doesn’t one need to have a ‘belief’ before they can ‘test’ it scientifically? or do they wait for “others” to have a belief before they an “test” it? The reason I can’t wrap my mind about it (what im thinking about right now in this second as i try and ask this question anyway).. is that “intention” experiment.. now I cant trust “science” because i now see how their “intentions” got them their result.. so it’s like, my mind can’t wrap my head around this “knowing” thing anymore, since my mind has been adjusted to the thought that “knowing” ‘is’ “intention” and now science can’t be measured anymore because it was all intention anyway) lol.. omg.. no way can i describe this on facebook.. but thats ok, this convo is about something else.. me learning about “atheism”.. not me trying to figure out how it fits into my own beliefs.. but it was just what i thought about when i saw your comment.. but yeah.. i dont want to have to try and describe my complicated belief system now to try and ask a question about this “knowing” thing :)

  DSK This is where fundamentalists (talking historical debate, not this thread) often trip up. To test something you need a hypothesis – you don’t necessarily need to believe it’s true, but you can suspect it is (or isn’t). In fact the best scientific discipline is in fact to test if it is wrong, not right. That’s because scientists are human too, they can be persuaded to look for clues that support their hypothesis – then pronounce “it’s correct!” That is invalid science because it’s likely to be merely confirmation bias. AKA “belief.” You may have noticed from time to time, in my FB timeline the odd cartoon or statement about sciences like “AGW.” This is the “single” reason I don’t accept their science. Not because they are wrong, but because it’s confirmation bias driven. If they opened up to scrutiny & stopped yelling “consensus!” they’d be more palatable to the pure sciences & make more headway (or not) based on sound scientific method & less “belief.”  


basically the intention experiment changed my life.. i need someone to ‘disprove’ it now before i can believe in any science now .. lol.. (so im up shit creek with that i think..) cos they cant prove that their intentions didnt get whatever result they got.. cos now no matter who does the test – their intentions will always be what i see as their result (cos even if they intend to disprove something – we cant measure what is actually going on in their subconscious where they might actually be secretly ‘hoping’ to prove something they are trying to disprove etc.) – its changed me.. its mangled me up lol.. its changed everything for me.. and then reaffirmed along the way with quantum physics and bruce liptons research and.. also with my own healing.. I was writing a book based on research.. for what “healed” me.. then had to stop as i realized holy shit – it was “intention” that healed me.. (for lack of better description at this time of night).. I get what you mean though, but now my thinking is “flawed” in that .. i dont think i can undo this “intention” thing now that ive witnessed it for myself.. and so now.. i cant see things the same way as all these other theories cos it kinda “overrules” everything :) but it definitely describes the way i used to think.. hehe

if you could only take a look inside my twisted mind.. lol. its fun! and weird and mind-bending.

  DSK Power of will is power of thought. There’s no need to change that. That’s freedom. You may feel X is correct, based on what you feel you know today. But growth, just like in pure science, is done by degrees. It never stops changing, growing. Knowledge is like the universe. Forever expanding. Like quantum physics because it need not be one layer, rather parallel layers, meshed, connected. As humans we seek patterns to reduce complexity. Order makes us feel safe. But accepting complexity, even chaos, can be simple – and be its own haven. Kierkegaard wrote: “There are two ways of being deceived. One is to believe that which is not true. The other is not to believe that which is true.” The problem here is the focus on belief. This is why I prefer not to rely on belief at all. It’s also why ive appeared to contradict myself over decades. Things change. How we feel, how we think, who we like, who we dislike. Even what we understand. Dont fight it. Embrace it.  


  DSK /\ /\ /\ Sounding more YingYang there than I actually intended. ;)  


lol I love it :)

im like a little kid being “educated” .. like with my hand up.. :)

  EN Pretty much…. Few athiests who base their belief on science would believe in a soul. Athiesm is a very broad term which basically believes in no supernatural elements   


you know what i love… knowing what you do.. its like.. how do you do what you do without belief in any kind of supernatural elements? (actually i remember seeing that you were athiest ‘now’.. but I never identified the non-supernatural side with you because.. i just can’t see why ghost tours would intrigue you? is it like “hunting for the truth”.. “proving people wrong” or “trying to find the science” kinda thing? It’s so interesting! everyone you come in contact with on a day-to-day basis would have a belief in ghosts? or do they just like the stories or want to get scared, etc ?

  EN I use ghost stories as a vehicle to tell messed up history. And I LOVE ghost stories and creeping people out… More with confronting reality than actual ghosts  


what lol i had no idea… ok.. so if what we saw as teens in Brown Hill “was” actually real.. (and we dont know – heck – we dont even talk about it anymore and I dont even talk to any of those peeps anymore except my sis) how would that go down in your belief system? And hey, I dont know what we saw now.. cos its been so long that “doubt” has crept into me.. but still.. like, if you went out there.. and saw what we “think” we saw.. what would you have to do to make it “science” based? like is there equipment or something? how does that work?

  EN I see people experience “ghosts” all the time at aradale… But the brain is a very fallible thing…. It will create meaning when confused. Lots of people think it’s a ghost when it’s just an open window or something similar  


maybe they only see it cos they believe it, and you don’t see it, cos you don’t?

as in, maybe science hasn’t caught up with what it can’t yet measure

   EN I don’t subscribe to that theory either… Either something is there or it isn’t. It all comes down to evidence. Psychic ability was studied for 140 years under “parapsychology”. After providing no evidence after all that time, it was slowly dismissed as pseudo-science. It’s not that scientists close minded, it just requires evidence to accept something, and there hasn’t been scientific proof. Lots of people who have experiences already believe in ghosts, which makes it a psychological thing. I have become an athiest and non believer in ghosts through years of exploring haunted places and finding nothing which would count as scientific evidence  


yeah i honestly wish i had an easier to describe belief system lol.. but alas, ive taken on something that is crazier than ive ever seen.. and it really helps me, but im still constantly trying to figure stuff out and learn more.. find more truth.. and i love love love talking to people with different belief systems and trying to understand other people too.. everyone having a different experience with different beliefs and I love it

who wants to be “normal” anyway? :)

  EN I’m not normal. I’m a Satanist! It’s kinda like a badarse religion for athiests who believe ALL gods, including Satan, are anthropomorphic representations of basic human characteristics  


ok confused again.. you’re a satanist that doesn’t believe in “satan”?

I mean.. “Satanists” don’t believe in a “Satan”.. so what is the religion that believes in Satan?

(Apart from Christians)

  EN Correct. He is a human construct representing human qualities…. Greed, lust, gluttony, pride, sloth, wrath,….. These are human characteristics… But also (according to traditional religions anyway) they are “satanic”… Instead of fighting with traditional religions, we think it’s better to agree and use their terminology  


This is what I used to think people who identified as “Satanists” were (my 15yo self, not my 39yo self who hasn’t even thought about it since): people who want to shock other people.. like “scare” other people..like.. the only Satanists I’ve met were people doing it in our teens.. and I just thought that’s what they were doing as a “phase” to get through “society” not understanding them.. not wanting to “conform” and that was one way to say “you know what.. I’m not gonna follow along with your “rules”… I’m gonna wear all black and read a Satanic bible and play music that destroys my mind and so on).. and I haven’t met anyone “since” that time (to my knowledge) that identifies as a Satanist but then I know you – lol so maybe I did know people and just never discuss religion or atheism with them.. so now I have to undo my preconceived 15yo “teenage” concept on Satanists too? big night tonight lol. :)

Ok.. so Satanists don’t worship a Satan..(“only Christians believe in a “Satan”?) and Satanists are actually Atheists.. but what is the ‘Greed, lust, gluttony, pride, sloth, wrath’ thing about? like.. does it mean you “sway towards” those “qualities” over the opposing characteristics?


  EN We believe that, as we are humans and these are human characteristics, that too be a complete human we must be able to embrace both “good” and “bad” as traditionally defined without guilt (because we ARE human) and that the focus of life should be today, not what happens after we die, because there is no proof that ANYTHING happens when we die  


ahh ok that makes sense


  EN It’s not dissimilar to Taoism and the yin yang…. Except we use Christian terminology because we live in a Christian world. Yes, it’s also a but rebellious but Satan was, and I believe rebellion is a good thing  


I believe in rebellion as well, rebellion from conformity, from this rat-race, from this “fake world”.. I like having “real” experiences, being real and raw.. not from this “pre-designed life that has been intended for us.. do this, do that, don’t do this, don’t stand here – don’t dance in the street lol, don’t speak about that, blah blah blah).. I do like my beliefs at the moment though ,cos I can accept “everyone” for who they are in my current beliefs, so I love it right now, and it gives me hope for humanity in a big way.. (even though I’m constantly seeking more and more answers to life.. I just don’t see myself “dropping” my current beliefs unless I find something that serves my life even better, and life is a “high” right now so it would wanna be good lol)

EN, thanks heaps for all your posts tonight.. and R too! I really enjoyed having my eyes opened to what Atheism is and more.. wow. Thanks guys xo Great convo. .*mind stretched* :)


  EN I’m not trying to convert you… Just giving you an insight into spirituality for athiests  


very much appreciated lol.. and that would be so funny if you were trying to “convert” me when isn’t that another thing that Atheists ‘hate’ about religion?


  EN Correct! But I’m happy to discuss it if you want to know more  


awesome.. im sure ill think of more questions and I’m glad we can all talk about these kinds of topics without the conversation turning nasty like if I posted my question like….. “anywhere else” lol


  DSK For me, atheism isn’t an absolute statement of “there is no deity (or deities) but rather a rejection of faith based acceptance. To me the former is ostrich like where as the latter is more scientific. You can’t prove something you cant observe – and the converse is equally true. I can entertain evidence I can test, but most religions (monotheastic anyway) exclude the principle of testing for evidence, branding it a sin. Whereas I simply don’t need to accept it as true or false. Puts me in the category of atheist even when it’s not the accepted definition.  


  EN That’s like saying “there is a kettle floating around the moon, and because we can’t prove it ISN’T there, the possibility remains that it might be there”. That’s not how the scientific method works… What you are suggesting is agnosticism, not athiesm. Athiesm is a world view in which God has no place and serves no purpose  


mannnnnnn I need more friends like you guys lol.. this is the kinda stuff i wanna sit around somewhere and be able to talk about and yet “cant” in my current social circles :) but everytime I get the opportunity to talk about beliefs and religion and culture and our unique “truths”.. its totally my fave topic to “soak up” and I really really enjoy it


  EN I love it too!  


  DSK Political debate experience taught me it’s very important to phrase statements in these debates with care. “Yes, I see what you’re saying. I think…” or “Maybe so. Have you considered…” Etc. People can have good healthy discussions & then one word & kaboom! ;) This is more true of internal debate than public debate of course. The former is a journey of exploration, the latter is pure head kicking (in politics & law.)  


yeah I think I do better in these conversations when im just trying to “learn” & “understand” what the other is saying… than when I try and “share” what my current beliefs are (im finding.. lol. when i responded to your other comment.. im like.. yeah.. i was doing so well learning until it became a direct conflict with my current beliefs)


  GR Since we can’t prove anything. My personal thoughts are god is man made. Souls are talked about in religion and being man made tells me sorry but no souls. I don’t see humans any differently than rats, mice, dogs, cats, etc. We come, we go. Just try and have as much fun as you can while you are living. You only get one ride so enjoy.  


  GC I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in souls. I think that sort of messes with a lot of people’s heads that a person doesn’t believe in souls. lol I grew up in an Irish Catholic family and went to Mass every Sunday. I was around much discussion about religion and science as both my Mum and Dads sides of the family very much enjoyed science and fact. So for me it was a bit of confusing childhood. By the age of 12 I was absolutely sure, after a good 4-5 years of uncertainty that there is no God, no heaven, no hell, no purgatory, no satan, no angels etc. I bought my kids up to believe in what they wish to believe or where their heart tells them to go. I did not want them to miss out on spirituality if their hearts and minds needed it. They are all atheists. We jokingly say we are Pastafarians if people push us in discussion. Belonging to the Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster.. (It is NOT a religion) lol… in fact just the opposite. I do think spirituality is very important to many people. I see many people get great comfort in believing in a God or if Agnostic, still allowing for a soul. But for me, it makes absolutely No sense. If you would like me to introduce you to a few atheists, I’d be happy to. As much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, his book The God Delusion is quite interesting. You may enjoy it and it will probably give you much more to think about. Then again it might make you mad… lol I was horrified to realise Richard Dawkins and I pretty well think the same way…lol… That has made me question myself… and take a good hard look at the way I talk to others.. EEEEKKK!!!  


  CW http://www.theonion.com/…/god-realizes-he-forgot-put… God Realizes He Forgot To Put Souls In Humans THE HEAVENS While pacing across His Eternal…THEONION.COM  

hehe, r u really going to quote “The Onion” ? :D


  KB There is plenty of evidence of God Satan souls exist … You just haven’t bee. Looking in the right places. Start with looking at the life of Jesus and what shocking statements he said..plenty of evidence he existed too.. the bible throughout history has shown evidence. We are not fighting with human flesh but with powers and principalities in the spiritual realm. Eventually you will have to make a choice… Believe in Heaven or Hell. For me and my house we believe in Heaven and follow Jesus. There is no other choice. Take a look at helll.. no way I want to go there. I live life in joy knowing God Jesus and Holy Spirit. Seek and you shall find ..ask and you will receive. Plenty of evidence you just need to find it.  


  DSK That’s still a “belief”, Kerry. Not actually evidence. It requires the “belief” or “faith” that what is written is fact without evidence to support the core assumption. Not having a go, my wife & children are Catholic & I support that. But “evidence” cannot be, by it’s nature, from one source in one location. Evidence, that can be tested, needs to be quantifiable from separate sources. So it’s not “proof.” That in no way, however, invalidates how you feel, what you believe or indeed your right to believe in anything at all.  


   GC I’ve worked with alot of people with mental illness. I have always assumed this Jesus that people speak of may have in fact been mentally ill OR a very influential person with a very charismatic personality.
Seeing. so many over the years with the ability to heavily influence, sway and have such followers has always led me to think Jesus and his followers fell into that category. But this theory of mine angers people enormously. So much that their religion and need to not question but abide by what has been taught takes over and people cannot allow that possibility. One of the problems with fear of the afterlife is that many people are truly afraid of upsetting God and feeling his wrath. It is better for them not to question their beliefs. I have several sibling who are like this. Which also leads me to another interesting thing with people with religious beliefs.. Many religious people can’t grasp why an atheist doesn’t do wrong as there is nothing but jail to stop them. We don’t do wrong (or rarely) because we happen to be nice people. Not because we fear discipline, Gods wrath etc. 


  DSK GC, I’m inclined to concur with your “hypothesis.” It certainly begs the question. Some of the worlds most loved and charismatic have indeed been people with various illnesses (as we define them now.) Curiously people seem to follow people who are different to everybody else. For example – and not directly related to your example, so anybody reading, no offence given – but much of the worlds politicians & business leaders are psychopathic or inclined towards psychopathy (latent.) Emphasised to add – I’m not implying this was the case with JC. But you do have to wonder about some of the other characters in the old testament.  


  EN Jesus didn’t exist…. He’s an amalgamation of osiris, mithras, horus…. Lots of the old gods…. There isn’t one book other than the bible which mentions him (apart from Josephus, and the section about him wasn’t written by Josephus… It was added later). There is no scientific evidence to prove good at all, and we’ve been able to explain the creation of the universe without God, so why bother including supernatural elements when the natural explanation makes sense?  


I slept for 14 hrs lol.. :) and come back.. hopefully everyone is allowing others to share their own truth without judging.. oh .. nope lol .. once you make truth statements about what “other people believe”.. that’s where you took a turn lol cos now they have to share with you how you misinterpreted “their beliefs”.. (cos even I feel like correcting some of the mistruths that have been stated here about “other peoples beliefs” – and I don’t follow any of the beliefs mentioned so far! lol)

I truly am fascinated by how people’s minds deals with all this “life” & “mystery” stuff. I wanna know how your mind puts all this “stuff” together.. what puzzle you have put together for yourself to be able to get through each day with all the “unexplained” and “guesses” and social conditioning and yada yada yada.

It’s truly awesome how everyone has figured out some kind of truth that enables them to walk around and go through their life. All the “Who Are We? Where did we come from? What is the meaning of life? What is the point of all this? What are we doing here? What happens when we’re dead?” all that stuff.

What kind of job can I get where my life is spent listening to everyone’s thoughts on how they have come to some kind of thing in their mind about life’s “big questions”? :) Maybe “that” is what my podcast show should be about.. interviewing everyone and asking them these big questions and what kind of truth they have come to about them.. I think it’s absolutely fascinating.

lol although upon reflecting on that.. people will probably only want to listen to the ones that relate most to their “own” version of the truth and then diss and pull apart the others that didn’t relate .. hmm hehe.. still.. it’s the type of podcast I would love to have where we were just free to have that conversation.. (and at least in a podcast, the comments dont come until “after” the interview)


  EN I just think it’s good to build a belief system on logic, reason and science that superstition, mythology and antiquated concepts that do not stand up to academic scrutiny  


me too except the science/academic thing.. lol only because I now have a certain interpretation of “academia institutions” being another form of control.. though I love having these kinds of conversations.. but how do we have them where everyone feels safe to speak their truth?

I love it when people speak their truth, not the truth they tell “society” because they think that’s what people will understand and is accepted – but their inner truth – the one that they ‘actually’ really live by. How do we have those conversations so that people can ask questions and feel comfortable answering them without this “fear of what other people think”.. or trying to prove others wrong kinda deal… none of us “really” know what’s going on from our perspectives… so can we start from a place of realizing that how tiny we are in the grand scheme of things? I don’t know if that’s possible because of some beliefs that don’t see us as tiny… some people think they are god.. so how do you have a conversation with them? :)

or are our ego’s gonna just keep messin’ it up lol.. like that “need to feel right” being interpreted as “proving everyone else wrong”? I come from a belief where I can accept ‘almost’ everyone’s views.. so for me, it would be really easy to have conversations with others because even though I still have my social conditioning and inner beliefs to contend with – I come from a place of “wanting to understand” rather than “wanting to prove everyone wrong”.. but is that also my “ego”? lol.. like.. is it even possible to have a conversation without our ego messin’ things up… (like is that also my ego’s way of feeling “right”)

I sit and talk to people about their religions and observe them sitting there – bursting to try and convert me with every ounce of their being.. they aren’t listening at all.. just waiting for their turn to repeat all the things that has helped “prove to them” that their belief is the “one true belief”.. and I’m sitting here going.. well, sure, all our beliefs are possible because none of us really know anything from our tiny perspectives..

an ant has a completely different idea on their reality from their perspective.. a baby waiting to be born has a different perspective on their reality… and we are just an ant from the “universe” perspectives too..

so I love having the conversations cos they are interesting to me.. how our little ant-minds try to figure all this stuff out.. we’re complex.. because we have the ability to question why… (but we are also completely brainwashed).. and in the midst of it all is possibly an actual “truth” but how can we have a conversation without everyone thinking that their truth is the actual truth – especially if that’s what helps get them through life, their challenges, their experiences, etc.

I say believe what you want if it helps serve your life.. (and the lives of others). But all the while I’m still fascinated by all that I “do not know” and how it mixes & fits in with my complex brain and unique perspective of brainwashing lol I come from a place where I’m always questioning my own beliefs and the beliefs of others.. because I think there is always “more” that we don’t know from our perspectives. But not sure how to have a conversation with people who have already come to a truth that doesn’t allow anything new in? Probably not possible ?


  RHMH I’d like to note the danger of erroneously conflating any of the following notions: academia, science, logic, reason, critical thinking. These things can, and do, mean all sorts of different things. ‘Academia’ itself has collapsed into ‘vocational teaching’ in many aspects, and people in STEM and Humanities often gain degrees by simply regurgitating established ‘facts’, names and dates from texts, having not once done any serious critical thinking or developed as human beings. I recently marked an essay by a second year student who did not know what ‘peer review’ was, for eg. But this is certainly not the case in all disciplines or all academics.

Critical thinking is the one that we (the royal ‘we’, the West) fall short of, even though we often have an abundance of science, logic, and reasoning.  


Man ^^^^^ Exactly!


  EN I agree with you but the scientific method is a simple and powerful one for establishing fact (not truth… That’s very different). The scientific method is based on observation, hypothesis, experimentation, conclusion, peer review, revision and finally (hopefully) acceptance. If you go outside this, you are relying on faith. Faith is accepting something without evidence… That’s dangerous  


  EN In this case, a belief in God and that Jesus is his son…. Where is the evidence of this apart from the bible, which is written as a spiritual text not an historical one (historians find it very easy to punch holes in the historical accuracy of the bible)? These religions and a belief in God is understandable because they were designed over 2000 years ago when we simply didn’t have the technology to study the universe as we do today. Today, we know how suns are formed… But that’s only a result of new technologies. Before then, we said “God did it” but that’s out of understandable ignorance. Today we know a lot more but we are still fighting centuries of indoctrination and mythology 



Penny (PennyButler.com)
Penny (PennyButler.com)

Who are we? What are we doing here? What is the meaning of life? Penny is a truth-seeker, ever-questioning, ever-learning, ever-researching, ever delving further and deeper down the rabbit hole. This site is a legacy of sorts, a place to collect thoughts, notes, book summaries, whilst providing a searchable archive to easily lookup and reference.